[WAG] Guidelines For Practice & Practice Theor

[Isaac Freeman]

Thanks Jesse for the reminder, I agree with you, yet I have more to say.

I have no problem staring at emptyness for hours on end, without a single
thought in my mind, staring into my dantien lightly as if it was a pond,
more of a gaze.  I have not a single thought arise about anything else.
Occaisonally after about two hours or so a thought may arise, and dissapate,
but it hardly even forms, before I am able to refocus.  I rarely feel
uncomfortable while doing this, in fact I love the feeling of the practise,
perhaps too much.

The problem is When I do this, my intestines get stopped up, my digestion
comes to a halt, I get bags under my eyes, my body shows signs of aging
quickly, my tendons get sticky, I hardly sleep.  At first it seems like
these would be only the begining for a few days or more, but it goes on for
as long as I practice and gets worse. Do I give up?, no, why because years
ago I saw the light at the end of the tunnel, in fact you could probably say
that I experianced it a little to fast a little to intensely.

So the search was to figure out why the opposite was happening now. So I
slowed my practise, only practising a little each day,  I took in everything
you have suggested and everything teacher Hu has suggested and attempted
every interpretation of what you have suggested to me, that I can think of.
What continues to happen?  The exact same thing.

Do I give up? No? Why because I know that it is the path I want to take
and I saw it function for me in the past.

 The discussion I had with Cliff was an email intended only for him,
although I did mention that the information in some form might be useful to
someone -if- what I was experimenting with eventually allowed me to return
to the practise of staring at the dantien in emptyness without actually
affecting it, but rather as the thoughtless observer.

If tried, paying attention to my breath hurts any part of my body that I pay
attention to, listening to the dantien does the same thing.  It doesn't
matter what I use to focus or how I focus there the result is the same
thing,  I have learned to dialate my focus and only focus gently, it does
not matter perhaps less intense versions, but the same result occurs never
the less.

What I've come to realize it is not how gently I'm focusing, but rather the
quality of the focus itself.

In fact I realize now I have formed such a habit with this improper focus
that I cannot even sit and even pay attention to my breath without causing
the sourrounding parts of my body near my focus from having serious
problems, which basically means I cannot even practise other forms of
meditation if I want to because I cannot follow my breath as in Zen
meditation, I cannot pay attention to my body from top to bottom as in
Vipassina mediation (With the exception of doing it quick enough to prevent
any sensation from occuring).

In essense I'm trying to figure out how I can stare at my dantien without
causing myself to fall apart.

It says in the Tao of Te Ching that every practitioner goes through
difficulties, this is one of mine.

So why am I observing the affects of my Qi in my hand, my arm, or my foot?
These are simply experiments to help me understand what it is I'm doing that
needs to be adjusted. Or more correctly said so I can learn how *not* to do
whatever it is that I'm doing without the realization that I'm doing it.

First I figure that I needed to understand what it was exactly I was doing,
how can you -not- do something if you don't know what it is.  Since to me it
*seemed* like I was doing exactly as I was taught, I think the difference is
that I *am* doing exaclty what I was taught, but also I had brought a
destructive habit with me into the practise, I practised that way so long
that I need to break the habit, before I can continue. A habit that happens
when I sit still and do nothing, and I pay attention to a part of my body.

I welcome any help, I'd offer to pay money to anyone so that he could try to
help me in some private lessons, I would go to the ends of the earth to find
someone who could help me. In fact I already did, but I would do it again in
a heartbeat.

I know everyone tells me to look inside myself for the answer, well I do
that every day, as well as reviewing my notes everday, I read any piece of
information I can find on QiGong, looking for the answer outside and
inside, Yet I know the answer is nothing itself, how totally ironic is that?
Yes the monkey mind is toiling away, when the answer is right there in front
of me, Why? Because I can't see it, it's there right below my belly button,
right there the answer to eternal everything, yet when I set my sails
towards it the sailing carries me further away.

The portion of the email that was sent was a simple rambling of my
experiances, actually it's only a tiny portion of the email that explains
all this to cliff.

I've included the ful email below for completeness,  it explains in gory
detail, how all these ramblings started, please only read it if you want to.

Please remember that I suggest nothing to anyone, as I am probably the
practioner in the group with most problems.
Perhaps one day when I resolve this it will be useful, who knows, but until
then, *follow the practise as outlined*. Still if you find you have problems
that you cannot resolve through any method outlined, feel free to read this,
I cannot say it will help you, it may even make things more difficult for
you, but since part of my email has been sent to the group, I think it's
better for everyone that the whole thing be available for a better
understanding of my experiances and intentions.

-------------------------------------------------------------------&<---------------------------------------------

Here is another take on it.

I'm going to share my experiances and theories with you, but I suggest
nothing for you, yet I feel I want to tell you this.

One our body types are similar, and we both have similiar interests, with
computers, which requires a certain kind of focus.

I've been talking to several different instructors on my issue, both buddist
and daoists and I have Essentially I have come up with this.  Generally when
one practises Qigong, you pay attention to your body, wether it's moving
qigong where you are focusing on certain body parts, or meditation where you
focus on your dantien.

About 60% of the people seem to have problems maintaining focus long enough
to feel/notice any Qi build up in their dantien, or notice their external or
internal qi if they are doing moving qigong When the finally do notice the
Qi, they still have problems maintaining focus and naturally and slowly get
better at it, while naturally getting healthier. This is a kind of healing
qi that starts to move around and help the body, if you generate this qi in
your dantien (By simply gazing at it) you get a build up of energy and your
body goes through a natural healing process, and many things including
clearer thought, and everything the ancients spoke of I would surmise.  (Not
that you are suppose to pay attention to this, it's just what happens)

Another %20 get anxious, or desirous for something to happen, they might
also unconsiously kind of "push" at what they are doing.  This kind of
concentration can create a kind of qi that the buddists know as "Push".
There are several qualities of qi, hot, cold, push, pull, warming, healing
quality to name a few basic ones.  and actually by chance your dantien is
one of the safest places to do "push" on your body.), rather than a warm and
healing feeling.  Push qi will actually activate your dantien to energize
your body temporarily (If you push off of it rather than into it), but the
effects will last only temporary.  Continuing to do this every day, say
three times a day will cause you to have almost no sleep, and be drained of
energy,  these affects are also normal to the effects you get when you are
doing it properly except that your  energy will quickly fade, and your body
will not feel lighter etc....  The short term effects essentially are an
empty feeling or even a slight pressure in the dantien, or even  may
actually follow governing channel up your back. (Rather than warm healing
feeling in the dantien) (If you push inward rather than off your dantien)

Another %10 of the people, are able to focus and get the warm feeling, but
after noticing the progress is slow they consciously or  unconsciously start
"pushing".  This is where I am, I was able to focus properly at first, but
now every time I pay attention to any part of my body I generate "push
qi."   Push and pull qi is used in martial arts, it for example can allow
someone to hold their arms up for hours by pushing off the bottom side and
pulling off the top,  at the same time and has many other uses in the
martial arts when striking moving etc..  In cases where the problem inside a
persons body is a tumor, push Qi, if used precisely can be used to get rid
of the tumor.

I have yet to meet a doaist that can explain it in these terms, some would
tell you that you are pushing things at best. I think the point is that most
doaists don't know the qi qualities in a sort of logical way.

The last ten percent do not get the practice at all, can't hold the
concentration long enough to notice anything, even though they do benefit
from deep breathing, which occurs naturally and has many benfits in itself.

For the first about year of my pratice I had intense qi and strength coming
into my body and felt very healthy. Suddenly one day I noticed the opposite
affects happening, and gradually even my digestive condition returned with
even more problems. I kept practising trying to adjust my focus to bring
back the opposite affects, kept reading all the information and my notes
trying to figure out what made things different all of a sudden.  I even
took Jesse's tour in 2006 (Going all the way to china to find an answer),
and while I learned many things about traditional practise, it still didn't
answer the question on how to resolve the problem I'm facing.

Finally I spoke to a buddist instructor, who filled my dantien with some
energy, so that qi was really obvious to me (The more energy your body has
the easier it is to notice the qi in the begining ,  he then showed me the
quality of push (on my hands), and asked me if that is what I felt in my
dantien when I focused there.  I said yes, and  then he showed me what it
was useful for, holding up your arms, lifting weights larger than your own
muscle strength can use. He also mentioned the affects in the dantien.  This
all came to clear to me in that moment, I was gazing into my dantien
alright, but the quality that naturally arises for most people by doing this
was not what I was doing.

So how to fix it, I have been just doing some deep breathing and staring
into the floor, kind of zen style for a while and I'm trying to meditate in
any fashion without any kind of qi focus at all, a kind of a focus without
causing qi to happen. I started on my hand and just stared at it for a while
as an experiment , eventually my hand was sore , I didn't even have the
intention of bringing qi to it it, just happened.   This is from practicing
this type of qi for over three years now.  You see I notice my breathing or
my shoulder or anything and the push quality goes there and causes problems,
because push is actually quite destructive outside of the dantien within the
body.
Into the dantien you get more tired, your body gets more acidic rather than
less acidic, pushing off gives you a bit of energy, both I've mentioned.

Anyway the solution from what I can glean (And what I've been taught) is two
fold.  One is that meditation is only tool to help you get to
enlightenment,  the other is mindfullness, you can do mindfulness
meditation, but if you are like me and do meditation really well (Are able
to focus really intently), you can get spaced out, focus too hard or become
too narrow in your perception.

Both Zen style meditation, and Daoist style mediation have aspects of both
types, now if you are so good at meditation and not so good at mindfulness
then what it means is that you might be so deep in your practice but not be
aware of what is happening, you may even deepen in this and be spaced out
after your practice or start to easily get spaced out in things.

The two sides of the path sometimes need to be practiced seperatley to help
with this.  So how to practice mindfulness outside of meditation?  Well the
basic thing is to pick up an object with a small amount of detail on it, a
small jagged rock for example.  You look at the rock noticing it's details
and turn it around and keep noticing the details, but not getting caught up
in them. As soon as your mind forms a thought about the details then you
shift to the next bit of detail and keep doing that.  You might come back to
the same details and notice something different about them or not, but you
keep shifting.  Slowly you get more complicated objects until you can stand
back and look at a room. If you start to get spaced out, then your object is
too big, eventually you bring this into everday life, doing small benign
tasks and noticing the details as you do them, eventually you branch it out
into everday life.

To do this in qigong, you could for example practice some moving qigong, or
tai chi and pay attention to the subtle details of your body, motion, how
the movement feels inside your body etc...

When you think about it, Jesse has developed mindfulness through his other
practices that came before this, tai chi, bagua, etc.., so had others in the
class, others have enough mindfulness to be able to be aware of their
focus/depth of meditation in which case it's not nessecary.  With me I've
been staring at a computer screen all of my life, a very narrow two
demensional surface.  In fact I go very deep into many thoughts about this
and that while I work on the computer all related to that narrow focus.

Anyway this is all great in theory, although it makes so much sense to me, I
cannot speak for it's functionality.  I can say that yesterday I practiced
mindfullness for about twenty minutes on some small objects and I found that
before I left my house, I remembered everything without having to come back
for a change, in fact I simply noticed them there on the table, or the bed
or the closet before I left they caught my eye, perhaps this is the
mindfullness starting to work.  Today I also had a class with my qigong
instructor, he was talking about the details and now I see how he was trying
to show me the same thing for many months about paying attention to the
details of my body and how that will help me notice the qi more easily, help
me dialate the focus and be more aware of what i'm doing, and thus allowing
myself to be more gentle. So maybe the daoists just don't have direct
logical understanding, but they do have the connected theory.  If this all
works and I'm able to bring my practice back to being effective, I'll talk
to teacher Hu about it, but until then, I thought you might be interested as
my deviations seem to be part of my growth and it's taken me almost three
years to get to this point, where I feel I'm moving forward again, albeit
slowy, yet spiritually.

Love your brother in practise,

Isaac Freeman.





On Feb 2, 2008 4:57 AM, Eternal Spring <eternalspringtours at hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
> *Everyone can move their mind around to play with their Qi, visualize
> their Qi, observe their Qi and fantasize about their Qi..................*
> **
> *But there are very few that can keep their mind still and eventually
> dissolve the mind into emptiness............*
> **
> *This is real skill.................*
> **
> *This is where the Dao begins...............
> *
>
>
> > Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 00:08:51 -0800
> > From: clif at eugeneweb.com
> > To: isaac.freeman at gmail.com
> > CC: wag at eugeneweb.com
> > Subject: Re: [WAG] Fwd: Guidelines For Practice & Practice Theor
>
> >
> > Hi Issac,
> >
> > Sorry I didn't reply right away. I've been busy not manageing my time as
>
> > well as I should. ;-)
> >
> > Ok, I think from what you say are deffinition of groundedness is a
> little
> > different. but simular. Your version seems to be connecting with the
> earth
> > and harmonizing your consiousness with it. My deffenition includes that
> > and more abstractly any energy system you want to be a part of. However
> > after trying it I see you're right with simple grounding you can make
> that
> > connection and still not have it affect the "blinders" on your focus. My
>
> > take on that is that it's handeled by a different sub-body than the
> > consiouness. (my sloppy terms)...
> >
> > OK... It took me quite a while to come up with a exercise becuase when
> > I meditate I'm drawn to focus on something that just depends on where
> I'm
> > at in my head that day so it's sometimes hard for me to pick something
> > else. Anyway, you mentioned how when you focus on your hand it
> eventually
> > hurts. Why don't you also focus on your maridians along your arms and in
>
> > your hand? Feel how the energy affects them and what they want? Under my
>
> > loseer deffinition this could be seen as widening your awarness to
> include
> > them and seeing how they are related to the energy flow in your hand.
> > Infact as you prctace you can add more energy centers and pathways to
> your
> > awarness. It should be obviouse (I think) what they need.
> >
> > On another note, I've noticed in general that roadblocks pop up for me
> > shortly after I start meditateing, or at least things I need to work on.
>
> > They might be karmic things they might be thoughts from others, or maybe
>
> > blockages in your chackras. Whatever they are you need to focus on
> gently
> > removeing them and healing the trouble. I think this often involves
> > letting go of attachents. A hughe ammount of energy goes into being
> > attached, or you could say that you create your world and you only have
> so
> > much consousness to do that. When you release attachments you free up
> your
> > consouceness for other things. You may have much more power to process
> > things abstractly if you arn't tied down buy these things. You can't do
> > spritule gymnastics if your arms and legs are tied to the equipment.
> >
> > So I reccomend getting quite and running the spirtual energy that works
> > best for you, be it Qi, push, pull, cold, hot, or the little waterfall.
> > Then when that clensing energy brings up soemting thats blocking you
> focus
> > on it and where it's stuck and try to work it free. I like to think that
>
> > you don't actully have to know where it comes from though it can help.
> > Either way you can clear it and move on.
> >
> > One of the chalanges here is that it's often painfull. Pain sometimes
> > draws your attention and sometiems makes you shy away depending on the
> > reason. So the challange is to maintain your focus and how the blockage
> > relates to the energy system it's in.
> >
> > It does get easyer as you go on. Once you open up your eyes and include
> > something in you scan like say your maridians, it/they becomes second
> > nature to monitor it after awile, and then it just takes care of itself.
>
> > Then move on...
> >
> > Well I hope that was somewhat accurate and please share your thougths.
> :-)
> >
> > Ciao,
> > Clif
> >
> > On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, Isaac Freeman wrote:
> >
> > > Yeah perhaps some form of these notes would be useful to others.
> > >
> > > I'm thinking about groundedness as I have learned it and trying to
> figure
> > > out how it relates to what I'm doing.
> > >
> > > I feel that groundedness energetically allows me to have a very sharp
> focus,
> > > and I am able to reason deeply. Deep groundedness energetically causes
> body
> > > to be like an elephant so to speak slow moving yet very sturdy.
> > >
> > > I've been taught that I can focus relaxing from the top of my head to
> my
> > > feet over and over again, this greats grounding energetically and then
> you
> > > can stand up and smack yourself all over as we did in wudang after our
> > > practise and that releases the muscle portion of the energetic
> groundeness,
> > > so you now have relaxed muscles that are able to move quickly, yet
> your
> > > focus is sharp.
> > >
> > > Hrrm yeah interesting, the buddhists always have the mind, but they
> rarely
> > > equate what you can do energetically to do the same thing to effect
> your
> > > mind. Hrrrm..........still I've been able to ground myself as I know
> it and
> > > not be able to be aware of my focus dialation.. Hrrm .....I think this
> means
> > > our definition of groundedness is different, but perhaps as you say
> does
> > > have the same effect.
> > >
> > > Do you have any examples of exercises that you tried to maintain your
> > > definition of groundedness or was it just through experimentation and
> > > generally feeling of how your energetic body was related to the
> outside
> > > world as you say it. If you did I might be able to experiment and see
> what
> > > kind of results I get, and then be able to understand your definition
> a
> > > little more deeply, and also see if it helps me.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jan 26, 2008 4:35 PM, <clif at eugeneweb.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Isaac,
> > >>
> > >> Thanks for the long and detailed email. Yes I think we might be in
> the
> > >> same 10%. I have also had to learn about mindefullness, though the
> term I
> > >> learned it by was grounding. From your description I think they are
> the
> > >> same. To me Grounding means realateing to or being aware of how your
> focus
> > >> realates to the world, or at least your bodies energy system. I
> sapaose
> > >> more abstractly the environment you want to be apart of. It took me
> many
> > >> many years to learn how to stay grounded, and it takes some effort.
> > >>
> > >> A while back I was meditateing and thought I might be forceing the Qi
> > >> energy too hard. I thought of what you said earlyer about being
> gentle
> > >> with with yourself, and noticed that there was a part of my bodies
> energy
> > >> system that didn't appreciate being forced. I saw that it had it's
> own way
> > >> of handleing the flow of energy and that I could "intend" for the Qi
> to
> > >> flow and it would handle the details (for this particular energy
> > >> body/system). It even worked better if I could be sensitive to what
> it
> > >> needed from the rest of me. Ofcouse it's hard to maintain that level
> of
> > >> focus for very long unless you practus. Over the next few days I
> started
> > >> feeling better though that might have happend anyway.
> > >>
> > >> I wonder if we should post these notes to the list or wiki? It might
> help
> > >> others.
> > >>
> > >> Ciao,
> > >> Clif
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, Isaac Freeman wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Here is another take on it.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm going to share my experiances and theories with you, but I
> > >>> suggest nothing for you, yet I feel I want to tell you this.
> > >>>
> > >>> One our body types are similar, and we both have similiar interests,
> > >> with
> > >>> computers, which requires a certain kind of focus.
> > >>>
> > >>> I've been talking to several different instructors on my issue, both
> > >> buddist
> > >>> and daoists and I have Essentially I have come up with this.
> Generally
> > >> when
> > >>> one practises Qigong, you pay attention to your body, wether it's
> moving
> > >>> qigong where you are focusing on certain body parts, or meditation
> where
> > >> you
> > >>> focus on your dantien.
> > >>>
> > >>> About 60% of the people seem to have problems maintaining focus long
> > >> enough
> > >>> to feel/notice any Qi build up in their dantien, or notice their
> > >> external or
> > >>> internal qi if they are doing moving qigong When the finally do
> notice
> > >> the
> > >>> Qi, they still have problems maintaining focus and naturally and
> slowly
> > >> get
> > >>> better at it, while naturally getting healthier. This is a kind
> > >>> of healing qi that starts to move around and help the body, if you
> > >> generate
> > >>> this qi in your dantien (By simply gazing at it) you get a build up
> of
> > >>> energy and your body goes through a natural healing process, and
> many
> > >> things
> > >>> including clearer thought, and everything the ancients spoke of I
> would
> > >>> surmise.
> > >>>
> > >>> Another %20 get anxious, or desirous for something to happen, they
> might
> > >>> also unconsiously kind of "push" at what they are doing. This kind
> of
> > >>> concentration can create a kind of qi that the buddists know as
> "Push".
> > >>> There are several qualities of qi, hot, cold, push, pull, warming,
> > >> healing
> > >>> quality to name a few basic ones. and actually by chance your
> dantien
> > >> is
> > >>> one of the safest places to do "push" on your body.), rather than a
> warm
> > >> and
> > >>> healing feeling. Push qi will actually activate your dantien to
> > >> energize
> > >>> your body temporarily (If you push off of it rather than into it),
> but
> > >> the
> > >>> effects will last only temporary. Continuing to do this every day,
> say
> > >>> three times a day will cause you to have almost no sleep, and be
> drained
> > >> of
> > >>> energy, these affects are also normal to the effects you get when
> you
> > >> are
> > >>> doing it properly except that your energy will quickly fade, and
> your
> > >> body
> > >>> will not feel lighter etc.... The short term effects essentially are
> an
> > >>> empty feeling or even a slight pressure in the dantien, or even may
> > >>> actually follow governing channel up your back. (Rather than warm
> > >>> healing feeling in the dantien) (If you push inward rather than off
> your
> > >>> dantien)
> > >>>
> > >>> Another %10 of the people, are able to focus and get the warm
> feeling,
> > >> but
> > >>> after noticing the progress is slow they consciously or
> unconsciously
> > >> start
> > >>> "pushing". This is where I am, I was able to focus properly at
> first,
> > >> but
> > >>> now every time I pay attention to any part of my body I generate
> "push
> > >>> qi." Push and pull qi is used in martial arts, it for example can
> > >>> allow someone to hold their arms up for hours by pushing off the
> bottom
> > >> side
> > >>> and pulling off the top, at the same time and has many other uses in
> > >> the
> > >>> martial arts when striking moving etc.. In cases where the problem
> > >> inside a
> > >>> persons body is a tumor, push Qi, if used precisely can be used to
> get
> > >> rid
> > >>> of the tumor.
> > >>>
> > >>> I have yet to meet a doaist that can explain it in these terms, some
> > >> would
> > >>> tell you that you are pushing things at best. I think the point is
> that
> > >> most
> > >>> doaists don't know the qi qualities in a sort of logical way. I
> think
> > >> the
> > >>> practice teacher Hu teaches is very authentic, yet I am learning
> that
> > >> there
> > >>> is times were more/deeper or even more logical understanding would
> help
> > >> him
> > >>> with his students.
> > >>>
> > >>> The last ten percent do not get the practice at all, can't hold the
> > >>> concentration long enough to notice anything, even though they do
> > >> benefit
> > >>> from deep breathing, which occurs naturally and has many benfits in
> > >> itself.
> > >>>
> > >>> For the first about year of my pratice I had intense qi and strength
> > >> coming
> > >>> into my body and felt very healthy. Suddenly one day I noticed the
> > >> opposite
> > >>> affects happening, and gradually even my digestive condition
> returned
> > >> with
> > >>> even more problems. I kept practising trying to adjust my focus to
> bring
> > >>> back the opposite affects, kept reading all the information and my
> notes
> > >>> trying to figure out what made things different all of a sudden. I
> even
> > >>> took Jesse's tour in 2006 (Going all the way to china to find an
> > >> answer),
> > >>> and while I learned many things about traditional practise, it still
> > >> didn't
> > >>> answer the question on how to resolve the problem I'm facing.
> > >>>
> > >>> Finally I spoke to a buddist instructor, who filled my dantien with
> some
> > >>> energy, so that qi was really obvious to me (The more energy your
> body
> > >> has
> > >>> the easier it is to notice the qi in the begining , he then showed
> me
> > >> the
> > >>> quality of push (on my hands), and asked me if that is what I felt
> in my
> > >>> dantien when I focused there. I said yes, and then he showed me what
> > >> it
> > >>> was useful for, holding up your arms, lifting weights larger than
> your
> > >> own
> > >>> muscle strength can use. He also mentioned the affects in the
> dantien.
> > >> This
> > >>> all came to clear to me in that moment, I was gazing into my dantien
> > >>> alright, but the quality that naturally arises for most people by
> doing
> > >> this
> > >>> was not what I was doing.
> > >>>
> > >>> So how to fix it, I have been just doing some deep breathing and
> staring
> > >>> into the floor, kind of zen style for a while and I'm trying to
> meditate
> > >> in
> > >>> any fashion without any kind of qi focus at all, a kind of a focus
> > >> without
> > >>> causing qi to happen. I started on my hand and just stared at it for
> a
> > >> while
> > >>> as an experiment , eventually my hand was sore , I didn't even have
> the
> > >>> intention of bringing qi to it it, just happened. This is from
> > >> practicing
> > >>> this type of qi for over three years now. You see I notice my
> breathing
> > >> or
> > >>> my shoulder or anything and the push quality goes there and causes
> > >> problems,
> > >>> because push is actually quite destructive outside of the dantien
> within
> > >> the
> > >>> body.
> > >>> Into the dantien you get more tired, your body gets more acidic
> rather
> > >> than
> > >>> less acidic, pushing off gives you a bit of energy, both I've
> mentioned.
> > >>>
> > >>> Anyway the solution from what I can glean (And what I've been
> taught) is
> > >> two
> > >>> fold. One is that meditation is only tool to help you get to
> > >>> enlightenment, the other is mindfullness, you can do mindfulness
> > >>> meditation, but if you are like me and do meditation really well
> (Are
> > >> able
> > >>> to focus really intently), you can get spaced out, focus too hard or
> > >> become
> > >>> too narrow in your perception.
> > >>>
> > >>> Both Zen style meditation, and Doist style mediation have aspects of
> > >> both
> > >>> types, now if you are so good at medtation and not so good at
> > >> mindfulness
> > >>> then what it means is that you might be so deep in your practice but
> not
> > >> be
> > >>> aware of what is happening, you may even deepen in this and be
> spaced
> > >> out
> > >>> after your practice or start to easily get spaced out in things.
> > >>>
> > >>> The two sides of the path sometimes need to be practiced seperatley
> to
> > >> help
> > >>> with this. So how to practice mindfulness outside of meditation?
> Well
> > >> the
> > >>> basic thing is to pick up an object with a small amount of detail on
> it,
> > >> a
> > >>> small jagged rock for example. You look at the rock noticing it's
> > >> details
> > >>> and turn it around and keep noticing the details, but not getting
> caught
> > >> up
> > >>> in them. As soon as your mind forms a thought about the details then
> you
> > >>> shift to the next bit of detail and keep doing that. You might come
> > >> back to
> > >>> the same details and notice something different about them or not,
> but
> > >> you
> > >>> keep shifting. Slowly you get more complicated objects until you can
> > >> stand
> > >>> back and look at a room. If you start to get spaced out, then your
> > >> object is
> > >>> too big, eventually you bring this into everday life, doing small
> benign
> > >>> tasks and noticing the details as you do them, eventually you branch
> it
> > >> out
> > >>> into everday life.
> > >>>
> > >>> To do this in qigong, you could for example practice some moving
> qigong,
> > >> or
> > >>> tai chi and pay attention to the subtle details of your body,
> motion,
> > >> how
> > >>> the movement feels inside your body etc...
> > >>>
> > >>> When you think about it, Jesse has developed mindfulness through his
> > >> other
> > >>> practices that came before this, tai chi, bagua, etc.., so had
> others in
> > >> the
> > >>> class, others have enough mindfulness to be able to be aware of
> their
> > >>> focus/depth of meditation in which case it's not nessecary. With me
> > >> I've
> > >>> been staring at a computer screen all of my life, a very narrow two
> > >>> demensional surface. In fact I go very deep into many thoughts about
> > >> this
> > >>> and that while I work on the computer all related to that narrow
> focus.
> > >>>
> > >>> Anyway this is all great in theory, although it makes so much sense
> to
> > >> me, I
> > >>> cannot speak for it's functionality. I can say that yesterday I
> > >> practiced
> > >>> mindfullness for about twenty minutes on some small objects and I
> found
> > >> that
> > >>> before I left my house, I remembered everything without having to
> come
> > >> back
> > >>> for a change, in fact I simply noticed them there on the table, or
> the
> > >> bed
> > >>> or the closet before I left they caught my eye, perhaps this is the
> > >>> mindfullness starting to work. Today I also had a class with my
> qigong
> > >>> instructor, he was talking about the details and now I see how he
> was
> > >> trying
> > >>> to show me the same thing for many months about paying attention to
> the
> > >>> details of my body and how that will help me notice the qi more
> easily,
> > >> help
> > >>> me dialate the focus and be more aware of what i'm doing, and thus
> > >> allowing
> > >>> myself to be more gentle. So maybe the daoists just don't have
> direct
> > >>> logical understanding, but they do have the connected theory. If
> this
> > >> all
> > >>> works and I'm able to bring my practice back to being effective,
> I'll
> > >> talk
> > >>> to teacher Hu about it, but until then, I thought you might be
> > >> interested as
> > >>> my deviations seem to be part of my growth and it's taken me almost
> > >> three
> > >>> years to get to this point, where I feel I'm moving forward again,
> > >> albeit
> > >>> slowy, yet spiritually.
> > >>>
> > >>> In case your interested there is other stuff above the two methods
> that
> > >> must
> > >>> occur on the path to enlightenment, that's contimplation, in fact
> > >> aparently
> > >>> you can get there strictly through that method if you understand how
> to
> > >>> properly reason and contimplate, but the guidelines are a little
> longer
> > >> than
> > >>> this email will be so anyway for now enjoy your evening.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > >>> From: Eternal Spring < eternalspringtours at hotmail.com >
> > >>> Date: Jan 23, 2008 1:22 AM
> > >>> Subject: [WAG] Guidelines For Practice & Practice Theor
> > >>> To: clif at eugeneweb.com
> > >>> Cc: wag at eugeneweb.com
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> *The Hundred Character Tablet **by Ancestor Lu says,*
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Nurturing Energy, forget words and guard it.
> > >>>
> > >>> Conquer the mind, do nondoing.
> > >>>
> > >>> In activity and quietude, know the source progenitor.
> > >>>
> > >>> There is no thing; whom else do you seek?
> > >>>
> > >>> Real constancy should respond to people;
> > >>>
> > >>> in responding to people, it is essential not to get confused.
> > >>>
> > >>> When you don't get confused, your nature is naturally stable;
> > >>>
> > >>> when your nature is stable, energy naturally returns.
> > >>>
> > >>> When energy returns, elixir spontaneously crystallizes,
> > >>>
> > >>> in the pot pairing water and fire.
> > >>>
> > >>> Yin and Yang arise, alternating over and over again,
> > >>>
> > >>> everywhere producing the sound of thunder.
> > >>>
> > >>> White clouds assemble on the summit,
> > >>>
> > >>> sweet dew bathes the polar mountain.
> > >>>
> > >>> Having drunk the wine of longevity,
> > >>>
> > >>> you wander free; who can know you?
> > >>>
> > >>> You sit and listen to the stringless tune,
> > >>>
> > >>> you clearly understand the mechanism of creation.
> > >>>
> > >>> The whole of these twenty verses
> > >>>
> > >>> is a ladder straight to heaven.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> *The Secret Discourse on the Mysterious Pass by the Master of the
> White
> > >> Jade
> > >>> Moon says, "*Have no mind on things and no things in mind."
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> *Calling the Way, a collection by the Master of Eternal Spring,
> says,
> > >> "*When
> > >>> not a single thought leaves the heart, this is true emptiness."
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> *The Master of the Cloudy Portal said*, "At the first stage of
> > >> meditation,
> > >>> thought becomes still. At the second stage of meditation, breath
> > >> becomes
> > >>> still. At the third stage of meditation, the energy channels become
> > >> still.
> > >>> At the forth stage of meditation, there is a total extinction and
> entry
> > >> into
> > >>> great concentration."
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> *Wang ChongYang's Collection on Complete Reality says,* "There is a
> way
> > >> to
> > >>> conquer the mind. If the mind is always calm and still, dark and
> > >> silent,
> > >>> not seeing anything, neither inside nor outside, free of all
> thoughts
> > >> and
> > >>> mental images, this is the settled mind, which is not to be
> conquered.
> > >> If
> > >>> the mind gets excited at objects, falling all over itself looking
> for
> > >>> beginnings and ends, this is the confused mind, which ruins the
> virtues
> > >> of
> > >>> the Way and undermines essence and life - it should not be indulged.
> > >>> Whatever you are doing, always strive to conquer perception,
> feeling,
> > >> and
> > >>> cognition, realizing these are afflictions. Putting your nature in
> > >> order is
> > >>> like tuning a stringed instrument. If the strings are too tight they
> > >> will
> > >>> snap, while if they are too loose they will not be responsive. When
> > >>> taughtness and relaxation are balanced, then the instrument is
> ready.
> > >> It is
> > >>> also like making a sword; too much iron and it will snap, too much
> tin
> > >> and
> > >>> it will bend. When iron and tin are balanced, then the sword is
> useful.
> > >>> Tuning and refining your true nature is a matter of embodying these
> two
> > >>> principles."
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> *The Treatise on Cultivating Life by Liu Hua Yang says,* "The
> subtleties
> > >> of
> > >>> the Tao lie in original nature and life, and to cultivate original
> > >> nature
> > >>> and life is to return to the One. The ancient sages used symbols
> when
> > >> they
> > >>> spoke of returning original nature and life to the One because they
> did
> > >> not
> > >>> want to present the teachings in a straightforward way.
> Consequently,
> > >>> nowadays it is difficult to find someone who truly understands the
> > >> meaning
> > >>> of cultivating mind and body."
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> *Zhang Sanfeng's Alchemy Secrets says,* "The actual practice of the
> work
> > >>> cannot follow anything created as a rule, because everything created
> is
> > >>> temporal. At first the work is a matter of extinguishing
> emotionalism
> > >> and
> > >>> sweeping away miscellaneous thoughts. This is the first step,
> building
> > >> the
> > >>> foundation and refining the self. Once the human mentality is set
> > >> aside,
> > >>> the celestial mind comes back. Once human desires are purified, then
> > >> the
> > >>> celestial design is always present."
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> *The Secret of the Golden Flower by Ancestor Lu says,* "Naturalness
> is
> > >>> called the Way. The Way has no name or form; it is just the essence,
> > >> just
> > >>> the primal spirit."
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> *In the art of practice to follow the Way, when we diverge from the
> Way,
> > >>> affliction, aberration and calamity can arise.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Generally it is the grasping mind, thoughts, desires, obsession and
> > >>> emotions that cause such disturbance.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Let us call these five the Five Bringers of Calamity.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *What is this thing we call 'Calamity'.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *It can show signs such as, dizziness, headache, pain behind the
> eyes,
> > >> sharp
> > >>> needle like pain in the abdomen, nausea, vomiting, heavy head and
> > >>> disoriented confusion. *
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *We can term these the Eight Calamities.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Generally if we practice in a natural and gentle way, there is no
> > >> problem
> > >>> and no calamity shall arise.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Calamity can arise when we force things, try and gain progress,
> > >> practice
> > >>> with strong emotional desire such as anger, force and passion,
> > >> forcefully
> > >>> use the mind will in an intense manner, over concentrate the mind
> will,
> > >>> think and mentally analize the practice seeking signs and results,
> and
> > >> also
> > >>> practice for an excessive long period of time in a forceful manner.
> *
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *This is a subtle area, and it is very easy for the false mind to
> tell
> > >> you
> > >>> that you are making great progress - while all the time you are in
> > >> reality
> > >>> using force and aggressive mind will - creating nothing but
> disaster;
> > >> and
> > >>> diverging from the Great Way. *
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Be careful, watchful, and diligent.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *To practice properly, we must go slowly, in a very gentle and
> balanced
> > >>> manner.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Sometimes we move forward, sometimes we stop and rest, sometimes we
> > >> take a
> > >>> step back.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *All the while being natural, not thinking to gain anything; letting
> the
> > >>> pure heart embody the practice.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Keep in mind the basic teaching of Resting in Purity and
> Stillness.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *This one phrase embodies the whole course - 'Rest in Purity and
> > >> Stillness.'
> > >>> *
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Let us not forget the phrase, 'The Great Way of Dao Follows the Way
> of
> > >>> Nature.'*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Be natural. *
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Be Pure.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Be Still.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *To follow the Dao, we must follow Nature.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *During the practice, there are many signs that arise.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Sometimes we feel light, sometimes heavy.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Sometimes there is pain and stiffness.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Sometimes there is nothing at all that arises, and it seems quite
> > >> ordinary.
> > >>> *
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Sometimes there is energetic vibration, and internal movement of
> all
> > >> sorts.
> > >>> *
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Sometimes there is great golden and white light that appear, from
> where
> > >> we
> > >>> do not know.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Sometimes there is strong thunder and wind like sound, arising from
> > >> where
> > >>> we do not know.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Sometimes we float away in a golden cloud, loosing all sense of our
> > >> selves,
> > >>> where we came from, and where we are going, floating up and away. *
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Sometimes a great pleasure arises, like a wave of golden light,
> > >> covering us
> > >>> and washing away all things in this world of red dust.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Sometimes we fall down into the pool that has no name, no color, a
> > >> place of
> > >>> utter emptiness, utter nothingness, for how long we do not know. *
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Sometimes we find ourselves in a place of purple clouds, not
> knowing
> > >> where
> > >>> we are, or how we arrived there; a golden moon presents itself, and
> > >> baths us
> > >>> in its divine mystic light. *
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Many things happen if we can follow practice in a proper manner.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Do not think too much about it all.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Just continue with the practice.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Gain the Pure Heart State.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Rest in Tranquility and Stillness.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Gain Stability; remain in the unchanging state.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Return to the place before your birth and death; viewing your true
> > >> original
> > >>> face.*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> *Follow the way of nature, and let nature do its own
> > >> work................*
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>> **
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ------------------------------
> > >>> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN
> > >>> Messenger<http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/>
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >> > WAG mailing list
> > >>> WAG at eugeneweb.com
> > >>> http://eugeneweb.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugeneweb.wag
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WAG mailing list
> > WAG at eugeneweb.com
> > http://eugeneweb.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugeneweb.wag
>
>
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