[WAG] Fwd: Guidelines For Practice & Practice Theor

[clif at eugeneweb.com]

Hi Issac,

Sorry I didn't reply right away. I've been busy not manageing my time as 
well as I should. ;-)

Ok, I think from what you say are deffinition of groundedness is a little 
different. but simular. Your version seems to be connecting with the earth 
and harmonizing your consiousness with it. My deffenition includes that 
and more abstractly any energy system you want to be a part of. However 
after trying it I see you're right with simple grounding you can make that 
connection and still not have it affect the "blinders" on your focus. My 
take on that is that it's handeled by a different sub-body than the 
consiouness. (my sloppy terms)...

OK... It took me quite a while to come up with a exercise becuase when 
I meditate I'm drawn to focus on something that just depends on where I'm 
at in my head that day so it's sometimes hard for me to pick something 
else. Anyway, you mentioned how when you focus on your hand it eventually 
hurts. Why don't you also focus on your maridians along your arms and in 
your hand? Feel how the energy affects them and what they want? Under my 
loseer deffinition this could be seen as widening your awarness to include 
them and seeing how they are related to the energy flow in your hand. 
Infact as you prctace you can add more energy centers and pathways to your 
awarness. It should be obviouse (I think) what they need.

On another note, I've noticed in general that roadblocks pop up for me 
shortly after I start meditateing, or at least things I need to work on. 
They might be karmic things they might be thoughts from others, or maybe 
blockages in your chackras. Whatever they are you need to focus on gently 
removeing them and healing the trouble. I think this often involves 
letting go of attachents. A hughe ammount of energy goes into being 
attached, or you could say that you create your world and you only have so 
much consousness to do that. When you release attachments you free up your 
consouceness for other things. You may have much more power to process 
things abstractly if you arn't tied down buy these things. You can't do 
spritule gymnastics if your arms and legs are tied to the equipment.

So I reccomend getting quite and running the spirtual energy that works 
best for you, be it Qi, push, pull, cold, hot, or the little waterfall. 
Then when that clensing energy brings up soemting thats blocking you focus 
on it and where it's stuck and try to work it free. I like to think that 
you don't actully have to know where it comes from though it can help. 
Either way you can clear it and move on.

One of the chalanges here is that it's often painfull. Pain sometimes 
draws your attention and sometiems makes you shy away depending on the 
reason. So the challange is to maintain your focus and how the blockage 
relates to the energy system it's in.

It does get easyer as you go on. Once you open up your eyes and include 
something in you scan like say your maridians, it/they becomes second 
nature to monitor it after awile, and then it just takes care of itself. 
Then move on...

Well I hope that was somewhat accurate and please share your thougths. :-)

 	Ciao,
 	Clif

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, Isaac Freeman wrote:

> Yeah perhaps some form of these notes would be useful to others.
>
> I'm thinking about groundedness as I have learned it and trying to figure
> out how it relates to what I'm doing.
>
> I feel that groundedness energetically allows me to have a very sharp focus,
> and I am able to reason deeply. Deep groundedness energetically causes body
> to be like an elephant so to speak slow moving yet very sturdy.
>
> I've been taught that I can focus relaxing from the top of my head to my
> feet over and over again, this greats grounding energetically and then you
> can stand up and smack yourself all over as we did in wudang after our
> practise and that releases the muscle portion of the energetic groundeness,
> so you now have relaxed muscles that are able to move quickly, yet your
> focus is sharp.
>
> Hrrm yeah interesting, the buddhists always have the mind, but they rarely
> equate what you can do energetically to do the same thing to effect your
> mind.  Hrrrm..........still I've been able to ground myself as I know it and
> not be able to be aware of my focus dialation.. Hrrm .....I think this means
> our definition of groundedness is different, but perhaps as you say does
> have the same effect.
>
> Do you have any examples of exercises that you tried to maintain your
> definition of groundedness or was it just through experimentation and
> generally feeling of how your energetic body was related to the outside
> world as you say it. If you did I might be able to experiment and see what
> kind of results I get, and then be able to understand your definition a
> little more deeply, and also see if it helps me.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 26, 2008 4:35 PM, <clif at eugeneweb.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Isaac,
>>
>> Thanks for the long and detailed email. Yes I think we might be in the
>> same 10%. I have also had to learn about mindefullness, though the term I
>> learned it by was grounding. From your description I think they are the
>> same. To me Grounding means realateing to or being aware of how your focus
>> realates to the world, or at least your bodies energy system. I sapaose
>> more abstractly the environment you want to be apart of. It took me many
>> many years to learn how to stay grounded, and it takes some effort.
>>
>> A while back I was meditateing and thought I might be forceing the Qi
>> energy too hard. I thought of what you said earlyer about being gentle
>> with with yourself, and noticed that there was a part of my bodies energy
>> system that didn't appreciate being forced. I saw that it had it's own way
>> of handleing the flow of energy and that I could "intend" for the Qi to
>> flow and it would handle the details (for this particular energy
>> body/system). It even worked better if I could be sensitive to what it
>> needed from the rest of me. Ofcouse it's hard to maintain that level of
>> focus for very long unless you practus. Over the next few days I started
>> feeling better though that might have happend anyway.
>>
>> I wonder if we should post these notes to the list or wiki? It might help
>> others.
>>
>>        Ciao,
>>        Clif
>>
>> On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, Isaac Freeman wrote:
>>
>>> Here is another take on it.
>>>
>>> I'm going to share my experiances and theories with you, but I
>>> suggest nothing for you, yet I feel I want to tell you this.
>>>
>>> One our body types are similar, and we both have similiar interests,
>> with
>>> computers, which requires a certain kind of focus.
>>>
>>> I've been talking to several different instructors on my issue, both
>> buddist
>>> and daoists and I have Essentially I have come up with this.  Generally
>> when
>>> one practises Qigong, you pay attention to your body, wether it's moving
>>> qigong where you are focusing on certain body parts, or meditation where
>> you
>>> focus on your dantien.
>>>
>>> About 60% of the people seem to have problems maintaining focus long
>> enough
>>> to feel/notice any Qi build up in their dantien, or notice their
>> external or
>>> internal qi if they are doing moving qigong When the finally do notice
>> the
>>> Qi, they still have problems maintaining focus and naturally and slowly
>> get
>>> better at it, while naturally getting healthier. This is a kind
>>> of healing qi that starts to move around and help the body, if you
>> generate
>>> this qi in your dantien (By simply gazing at it) you get a build up of
>>> energy and your body goes through a natural healing process, and many
>> things
>>> including clearer thought, and everything the ancients spoke of I would
>>> surmise.
>>>
>>> Another %20 get anxious, or desirous for something to happen, they might
>>> also unconsiously kind of "push" at what they are doing.  This kind of
>>> concentration can create a kind of qi that the buddists know as "Push".
>>> There are several qualities of qi, hot, cold, push, pull, warming,
>> healing
>>> quality to name a few basic ones.  and actually by chance your dantien
>> is
>>> one of the safest places to do "push" on your body.), rather than a warm
>> and
>>> healing feeling.  Push qi will actually activate your dantien to
>> energize
>>> your body temporarily (If you push off of it rather than into it), but
>> the
>>> effects will last only temporary.  Continuing to do this every day, say
>>> three times a day will cause you to have almost no sleep, and be drained
>> of
>>> energy,  these affects are also normal to the effects you get when you
>> are
>>> doing it properly except that your  energy will quickly fade, and your
>> body
>>> will not feel lighter etc....  The short term effects essentially are an
>>> empty feeling or even a slight pressure in the dantien, or even  may
>>> actually follow governing channel up your back. (Rather than warm
>>> healing feeling in the dantien) (If you push inward rather than off your
>>> dantien)
>>>
>>> Another %10 of the people, are able to focus and get the warm feeling,
>> but
>>> after noticing the progress is slow they consciously or  unconsciously
>> start
>>> "pushing".  This is where I am, I was able to focus properly at first,
>> but
>>> now every time I pay attention to any part of my body I generate "push
>>> qi."   Push and pull qi is used in martial arts, it for example can
>>> allow someone to hold their arms up for hours by pushing off the bottom
>> side
>>> and pulling off the top,  at the same time and has many other uses in
>> the
>>> martial arts when striking moving etc..  In cases where the problem
>> inside a
>>> persons body is a tumor, push Qi, if used precisely can be used to get
>> rid
>>> of the tumor.
>>>
>>> I have yet to meet a doaist that can explain it in these terms, some
>> would
>>> tell you that you are pushing things at best. I think the point is that
>> most
>>> doaists don't know the qi qualities in a sort of logical way.  I think
>> the
>>> practice teacher Hu teaches is very authentic, yet I am learning that
>> there
>>> is times were more/deeper or even more logical understanding would help
>> him
>>> with his students.
>>>
>>> The last ten percent do not get the practice at all, can't hold the
>>> concentration long enough to notice anything, even though they do
>> benefit
>>> from deep breathing, which occurs naturally and has many benfits in
>> itself.
>>>
>>> For the first about year of my pratice I had intense qi and strength
>> coming
>>> into my body and felt very healthy. Suddenly one day I noticed the
>> opposite
>>> affects happening, and gradually even my digestive condition returned
>> with
>>> even more problems. I kept practising trying to adjust my focus to bring
>>> back the opposite affects, kept reading all the information and my notes
>>> trying to figure out what made things different all of a sudden.  I even
>>> took Jesse's tour in 2006 (Going all the way to china to find an
>> answer),
>>> and while I learned many things about traditional practise, it still
>> didn't
>>> answer the question on how to resolve the problem I'm facing.
>>>
>>> Finally I spoke to a buddist instructor, who filled my dantien with some
>>> energy, so that qi was really obvious to me (The more energy your body
>> has
>>> the easier it is to notice the qi in the begining ,  he then showed me
>> the
>>> quality of push (on my hands), and asked me if that is what I felt in my
>>> dantien when I focused there.  I said yes, and  then he showed me what
>> it
>>> was useful for, holding up your arms, lifting weights larger than your
>> own
>>> muscle strength can use. He also mentioned the affects in the dantien.
>>  This
>>> all came to clear to me in that moment, I was gazing into my dantien
>>> alright, but the quality that naturally arises for most people by doing
>> this
>>> was not what I was doing.
>>>
>>> So how to fix it, I have been just doing some deep breathing and staring
>>> into the floor, kind of zen style for a while and I'm trying to meditate
>> in
>>> any fashion without any kind of qi focus at all, a kind of a focus
>> without
>>> causing qi to happen. I started on my hand and just stared at it for a
>> while
>>> as an experiment , eventually my hand was sore , I didn't even have the
>>> intention of bringing qi to it it, just happened.   This is from
>> practicing
>>> this type of qi for over three years now.  You see I notice my breathing
>> or
>>> my shoulder or anything and the push quality goes there and causes
>> problems,
>>> because push is actually quite destructive outside of the dantien within
>> the
>>> body.
>>> Into the dantien you get more tired, your body gets more acidic rather
>> than
>>> less acidic, pushing off gives you a bit of energy, both I've mentioned.
>>>
>>> Anyway the solution from what I can glean (And what I've been taught) is
>> two
>>> fold.  One is that meditation is only tool to help you get to
>>> enlightenment,  the other is mindfullness, you can do mindfulness
>>> meditation, but if you are like me and do meditation really well (Are
>> able
>>> to focus really intently), you can get spaced out, focus too hard or
>> become
>>> too narrow in your perception.
>>>
>>> Both Zen style meditation, and Doist style mediation have aspects of
>> both
>>> types, now if you are so good at medtation and not so good at
>> mindfulness
>>> then what it means is that you might be so deep in your practice but not
>> be
>>> aware of what is happening, you may even deepen in this and be spaced
>> out
>>> after your practice or start to easily get spaced out in things.
>>>
>>> The two sides of the path sometimes need to be practiced seperatley to
>> help
>>> with this.  So how to practice mindfulness outside of meditation?  Well
>> the
>>> basic thing is to pick up an object with a small amount of detail on it,
>> a
>>> small jagged rock for example.  You look at the rock noticing it's
>> details
>>> and turn it around and keep noticing the details, but not getting caught
>> up
>>> in them. As soon as your mind forms a thought about the details then you
>>> shift to the next bit of detail and keep doing that.  You might come
>> back to
>>> the same details and notice something different about them or not, but
>> you
>>> keep shifting.  Slowly you get more complicated objects until you can
>> stand
>>> back and look at a room. If you start to get spaced out, then your
>> object is
>>> too big, eventually you bring this into everday life, doing small benign
>>> tasks and noticing the details as you do them, eventually you branch it
>> out
>>> into everday life.
>>>
>>> To do this in qigong, you could for example practice some moving qigong,
>> or
>>> tai chi and pay attention to the subtle details of your body, motion,
>> how
>>> the movement feels inside your body etc...
>>>
>>> When you think about it, Jesse has developed mindfulness through his
>> other
>>> practices that came before this, tai chi, bagua, etc.., so had others in
>> the
>>> class, others have enough mindfulness to be able to be aware of their
>>> focus/depth of meditation in which case it's not nessecary.  With me
>> I've
>>> been staring at a computer screen all of my life, a very narrow two
>>> demensional surface.  In fact I go very deep into many thoughts about
>> this
>>> and that while I work on the computer all related to that narrow focus.
>>>
>>> Anyway this is all great in theory, although it makes so much sense to
>> me, I
>>> cannot speak for it's functionality.  I can say that yesterday I
>> practiced
>>> mindfullness for about twenty minutes on some small objects and I found
>> that
>>> before I left my house, I remembered everything without having to come
>> back
>>> for a change, in fact I simply noticed them there on the table, or the
>> bed
>>> or the closet before I left they caught my eye, perhaps this is the
>>> mindfullness starting to work.  Today I also had a class with my qigong
>>> instructor, he was talking about the details and now I see how he was
>> trying
>>> to show me the same thing for many months about paying attention to the
>>> details of my body and how that will help me notice the qi more easily,
>> help
>>> me dialate the focus and be more aware of what i'm doing, and thus
>> allowing
>>> myself to be more gentle. So maybe the daoists just don't have direct
>>> logical understanding, but they do have the connected theory.  If this
>> all
>>> works and I'm able to bring my practice back to being effective, I'll
>> talk
>>> to teacher Hu about it, but until then, I thought you might be
>> interested as
>>> my deviations seem to be part of my growth and it's taken me almost
>> three
>>> years to get to this point, where I feel I'm moving forward again,
>> albeit
>>> slowy, yet spiritually.
>>>
>>> In case your interested there is other stuff above the two methods that
>> must
>>> occur on the path to enlightenment, that's contimplation, in fact
>> aparently
>>> you can get there strictly through that method if you understand how to
>>> properly reason and contimplate, but the guidelines are a little longer
>> than
>>> this email will be so anyway for now enjoy your evening.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Eternal Spring < eternalspringtours at hotmail.com >
>>> Date: Jan 23, 2008 1:22 AM
>>> Subject: [WAG] Guidelines For Practice & Practice Theor
>>> To: clif at eugeneweb.com
>>> Cc: wag at eugeneweb.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *The Hundred Character Tablet **by Ancestor Lu says,*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nurturing Energy, forget words and guard it.
>>>
>>> Conquer the mind, do nondoing.
>>>
>>> In activity and quietude, know the source progenitor.
>>>
>>> There is no thing; whom else do you seek?
>>>
>>> Real constancy should respond to people;
>>>
>>> in responding to people, it is essential not to get confused.
>>>
>>> When you don't get confused, your nature is naturally stable;
>>>
>>> when your nature is stable, energy naturally returns.
>>>
>>> When energy returns, elixir spontaneously crystallizes,
>>>
>>> in the pot pairing water and fire.
>>>
>>> Yin and Yang arise, alternating over and over again,
>>>
>>> everywhere producing the sound of thunder.
>>>
>>> White clouds assemble on the summit,
>>>
>>> sweet dew bathes the polar mountain.
>>>
>>> Having drunk the wine of longevity,
>>>
>>> you wander free; who can know you?
>>>
>>> You sit and listen to the stringless tune,
>>>
>>> you clearly understand the mechanism of creation.
>>>
>>> The whole of these twenty verses
>>>
>>> is a ladder straight to heaven.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *The Secret Discourse on the Mysterious Pass by the Master of the White
>> Jade
>>> Moon says, "*Have no mind on things and no things in mind."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Calling the Way, a collection by the Master of Eternal Spring, says,
>> "*When
>>> not a single thought leaves the heart, this is true emptiness."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *The Master of the Cloudy Portal said*, "At the first stage of
>> meditation,
>>> thought becomes still.  At the second stage of meditation, breath
>> becomes
>>> still.  At the third stage of meditation, the energy channels become
>> still.
>>> At the forth stage of meditation, there is a total extinction and entry
>> into
>>> great concentration."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Wang ChongYang's Collection on Complete Reality says,* "There is a way
>> to
>>> conquer the mind.  If the mind is always calm and still, dark and
>> silent,
>>> not seeing anything, neither inside nor outside, free of all thoughts
>> and
>>> mental images, this is the settled mind, which is not to be conquered.
>>  If
>>> the mind gets excited at objects, falling all over itself looking for
>>> beginnings and ends, this is the confused mind, which ruins the virtues
>> of
>>> the Way and undermines essence and life - it should not be indulged.
>>> Whatever you are doing, always strive to conquer perception, feeling,
>> and
>>> cognition, realizing these are afflictions.  Putting your nature in
>> order is
>>> like tuning a stringed instrument.  If the strings are too tight they
>> will
>>> snap, while if they are too loose they will not be responsive.  When
>>> taughtness and relaxation are balanced, then the instrument is ready.
>>  It is
>>> also like making a sword; too much iron and it will snap, too much tin
>> and
>>> it will bend.  When iron and tin are balanced, then the sword is useful.
>>> Tuning and refining your true nature is a matter of embodying these two
>>> principles."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *The Treatise on Cultivating Life by Liu Hua Yang says,* "The subtleties
>> of
>>> the Tao lie in original nature and life, and to cultivate original
>> nature
>>> and life is to return to the One.  The ancient sages  used symbols when
>> they
>>> spoke of returning original nature and life to the One because they did
>> not
>>> want to present the teachings in a straightforward way.  Consequently,
>>> nowadays it is difficult to find someone who truly understands the
>> meaning
>>> of cultivating mind and body."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Zhang Sanfeng's Alchemy Secrets says,* "The actual practice of the work
>>> cannot follow anything created as a rule, because everything created is
>>> temporal.  At first the work is a matter of extinguishing emotionalism
>> and
>>> sweeping away miscellaneous thoughts.  This is the first step, building
>> the
>>> foundation and refining the self.  Once the human mentality is set
>> aside,
>>> the celestial mind comes back.  Once human desires are purified, then
>> the
>>> celestial design is always present."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *The Secret of the Golden Flower by Ancestor Lu says,* "Naturalness is
>>> called the Way.  The Way has no name or form; it is just the essence,
>> just
>>> the primal spirit."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *In the art of practice to follow the Way, when we diverge from the Way,
>>> affliction, aberration and calamity can arise.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Generally it is the grasping mind, thoughts, desires, obsession and
>>> emotions that cause such disturbance.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Let us call these five the Five Bringers of Calamity.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *What is this thing we call 'Calamity'.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *It can show signs such as, dizziness, headache, pain behind the eyes,
>> sharp
>>> needle like pain in the abdomen, nausea, vomiting, heavy head and
>>> disoriented confusion. *
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *We can term these the Eight Calamities.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Generally if we practice in a natural and gentle way, there is no
>> problem
>>> and no calamity shall arise.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Calamity can arise when we force things, try and gain progress,
>> practice
>>> with strong emotional desire such as anger, force and passion,
>> forcefully
>>> use the mind will in an intense manner, over concentrate the mind will,
>>> think and mentally analize the practice seeking signs and results, and
>> also
>>> practice for an excessive long period of time in a forceful manner. *
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *This is a subtle area, and it is very easy for the false mind to tell
>> you
>>> that you are making great progress - while all the time you are in
>> reality
>>> using force and aggressive mind will - creating nothing but disaster;
>> and
>>> diverging from the Great Way. *
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Be careful, watchful, and diligent.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *To practice properly, we must go slowly, in a very gentle and balanced
>>> manner.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Sometimes we move forward, sometimes we stop and rest, sometimes we
>> take a
>>> step back.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *All the while being natural, not thinking to gain anything; letting the
>>> pure heart embody the practice.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Keep in mind the basic teaching of Resting in Purity and Stillness.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *This one phrase embodies the whole course - 'Rest in Purity and
>> Stillness.'
>>> *
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Let us not forget the phrase, 'The Great Way of Dao Follows the Way of
>>> Nature.'*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Be natural. *
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Be Pure.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Be Still.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *To follow the Dao, we must follow Nature.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *During the practice, there are many signs that arise.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Sometimes we feel light, sometimes heavy.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Sometimes there is pain and stiffness.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Sometimes there is nothing at all that arises, and it seems quite
>> ordinary.
>>> *
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Sometimes there is energetic vibration, and internal movement of all
>> sorts.
>>> *
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Sometimes there is great golden and white light that appear, from where
>> we
>>> do not know.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Sometimes there is strong thunder and wind like sound, arising from
>> where
>>> we do not know.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Sometimes we float away in a golden cloud, loosing all sense of our
>> selves,
>>> where we came from, and where we are going, floating up and away. *
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Sometimes a great pleasure arises, like a wave of golden light,
>> covering us
>>> and washing away all things in this world of red dust.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Sometimes we fall down into the pool that has no name, no color, a
>> place of
>>> utter emptiness, utter nothingness, for how long we do not know. *
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Sometimes we find ourselves in a place of purple clouds, not knowing
>> where
>>> we are, or how we arrived there; a golden moon presents itself, and
>> baths us
>>> in its divine mystic light. *
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Many things happen if  we can follow practice in a proper manner.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Do not think too much about it all.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Just continue with the practice.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Gain the Pure Heart State.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Rest in Tranquility and Stillness.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Gain Stability; remain in the unchanging state.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Return to the place before your birth and death; viewing your true
>> original
>>> face.*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Follow the way of nature, and let nature do its own
>> work................*
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>>
>>>
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